Sankaku Channel/Tag Implication: loli -> child

Implicating loli -> child.

Reason: Also suggesting shota to imply child.

I was under the impression that the way we use these tags on chan.sankakucomplex.com makes this a logical implication (loli = female child & shota = male child), but the wiki for loli says that it "generally refers to art which depicts young females" (implying that it may not?), and shota says that it "should usually be mutually exclusive of straight shota," which has no wiki entry (but judging by the images tagged with straight_shota, it simply means a shota engaged in heterosexual acts). Perhaps some clarification on these tags is all that needs to happen? Until then, I'll be tagging any picture with a female child as both loli and child, as well as female (and the same for male children, just with shota and male, obviously). If this is wrong, someone please let me know.

Also, there is an alias for lolicon to loli (with the reasoning that they are used the same way), but not shotacon to shota (despite that they are apparently used the same way as well), so can I also suggest here that this alias be made?

^--Why do we even need straight shota when we have the hetero & shota tags on top of there being no such thing as a straight loli tag?

Keir_Tanaka said:
^--Why do we even need straight shota when we have the hetero & shota tags on top of there being no such thing as a straight loli tag?

I agree that it's kind of a specific tag, and the fact that we don't have straight loli does say something, but there are 16,000 posts under this tag, and they all seem to be following a specific rule, so at least people are using it (and using it correctly). I see no reason to get rid of it.

Mirou said:
I see no reason to get rid of it.

I wasn't advocating to be rid of it(entirely)more-so pointing out how this tag operates but then other tags of mine were shot down for similar reasons: the top one being my primary tag was covered by some other tags as well but only collectively & mine encapsulated em into 1; I was also advocating this tag would make more sense if we had either a straight loli and/or gay shota tag(s) as well|
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Something else I just thought of(alot of images with a child are not tagged as such but that wasn't it)I'm not sure that we've figured out if the various depictions that fall under futa are in some way female because I was part of a discussion a while back that leaned more towards em having their own gender despite em being indistinguishable from any female when fully-clothed but some users(myself included)think of em as being an alternate female so should depictions which have a futa with a shota fall under straight shota or other?

Keir_Tanaka said:
so should depictions which have a futa with a shota fall under straight shota or other?

No.
shota x female = straight shota
shota x all else = shota

Any other inferior combination with the tag shota is unnecessary.

Want gay shotas? yaoi shota
Want futa x shota? futanari shota
etc.

You'll just be combining excising tag combinations and making it one tag. Which is dumb, and will only add up to the clutter.

Galinoa said:
You'll just be combining excising tag combinations and making it one tag. Which is dumb, and will only add up to the clutter.

That end there simultaneously excuses & condemns the existence of the straight shota tag-
BUT
the entire statement suggests you missed my point I was getting at|

I was asking(specifically with tha last bit there)since most users consider every variation of 1girl with a penis to be female then wouldn't that make futa with a shota into straight shota considerably?
1 MORE THING
I'm also not asking for actual change but more of an ideology question here?

Keir_Tanaka said:
wouldn't that make futa with a shota into straight shota?

No.

Keir_Tanaka said:
I wasn't advocating to be rid of it(entirely)more-so pointing out how this tag operates but then other tags of mine were shot down for similar reasons: the top one being my primary tag was covered by some other tags as well but only collectively & mine encapsulated em into 1...

Keir_Tanaka said:
1 MORE THING
I'm also not asking for actual change but more of an ideology question here?

I see... You weren't trying to justify cleaning up the site by removing old redundant tags, you were trying to justify cluttering the site by creating new redundant tags. But where does it stop? Sure, we could take every result under solo child weapon and make it into one child soldier tag, but why stop there? Why not just take every female solo child weapon and assign female child soldier? Going further, one tag for red_hair female solo child weapon, one for long_hair red_hair female solo child weapon, etc., and whenever someone is looking for a long-haired, red-headed, female child soldier, all they have to do is use the long-haired_red-headed_female_child_soldier tag. Very quickly we'd have more tags than we know what to do with.

The ideology behind your tags being "shot down" is probably just not cluttering the site with redundant tags that wind up applying to only a few images anyway.

As for straight shota, it's an old tag that, I assume, was probably imported from another website where it's very popular and has a much more specific use than what we do with it here (like lolicon and shotacon). The point is, it's grandfathered in, and pointing to it to justify your tags doesn't make for a very compelling argument.

Keir_Tanaka said:
some users(myself included)think of [futa] as being an alternate female

Keir_Tanaka said:
most users consider every variation of 1girl with a penis to be female

You jumped from using "some" to "most" pretty quickly. That aside, I do not consider them female; they are their own gender and deserve their own tags, thus they have their own tags. There's even talk about giving them their own counting tags, proving that enough people don't think of this the same way as you.

Keir_Tanaka said:
should depictions which have a futa with a shota fall under straight shota or other?

Galinoa said:
No.

Keir_Tanaka said:
you missed my point

...

wouldn't that make futa with a shota into straight shota considerably?

Galinoa said:
No.

Keir, please stop asking questions and ignoring the answers when you disagree with them.

Mirou said:
Keir, please stop asking questions and ignoring the answers when you disagree with them.

QFT

I always thought of loli as a body type. So 100yo vampires can be tagged loli, but in no way are they still children.

RLTM said:
So 100yo vampires can be tagged loli, but in no way are they still children.

It's a kind of ロリババア. There seems to be no tag that corresponds to this word.
http://dic.pixiv.net/a/%E3%83%AD%E3%83%AA%E3%83%90%E3%83%90%E3%82%A2
ロリ is loli, ババア is a disparaging term for old woman or grandmother.

RLTM said:
I always thought of loli as a body type. So 100yo vampires can be tagged loli...

Body type makes sense. I can imagine someone drawing a young, well-endowed female and that not being loli (despite her age), or a hundred year-old vampire as having a loli body type (again, despite her age).

Though I haven't come across it, if I see a non-tagged image of a 12-year-old with huge breasts I'll think twice before slapping the loli tag on it.

RLTM said:
...but in no way are they still children.

But isn't the schtick of a vampire that their body stops aging? So, "elderly" mind, "young" body; therefore child still applies due to the age of the body, yes? I don't know, maybe this applies to some fictional versions of a vampire, but not others; it seems like a "use best judgement" kind of situation.

If the "young-looking" quality of some loli or shota posts doesn't meet the requirements for "child," then the implications I suggested should obviously be declined. Thanks for discussing it though, guys!

However, I still think shotacon = shota, for the purposes of tagging.

Mirou said:
But isn't the schtick of a vampire that their body stops aging? So, "elderly" mind, "young" body; therefore child still applies due to the age of the body, yes? I don't know, maybe this applies to some fictional versions of a vampire, but not others; it seems like a "use best judgement" kind of situation.

Yeah, that makes sense. On top of that it's also hard to judge the age of a character's mind if you don't know the franchise she is from.

But still, some characters of which I know are secretly adults sometimes emit this "adult in a loli body" feel, which would refrain me from tagging them child (even though I never tag characters with child because I never really thought of tagging them with that)

Mirou said:
Though I haven't come across it, if I see a non-tagged image of a 12-year-old with huge breasts I'll think twice before slapping the loli tag on it.

oppai_loli says hello. Edit: Just noticed that since that tag has been aliased to loli_face_and_big_boobs it seems to have taken on a broader meaning… now I’m not sure what to put in its wiki. Edit: The hell is oppai_loli_art_style. lol I’m kinda getting the feeling the “loli_face_etc.” tag should be restricted in its usage to just “oppai loli” posts like it was before the renaming…

Mirou said:
But isn't the schtick of a vampire that their body stops aging? So, "elderly" mind, "young" body; therefore child still applies due to the age of the body, yes?

That all depends on how you definte the “child” tag. Is it young-looking, or young of age? For loli, I think we already agree that it’s young-looking.

I submitted the shotacon → shota alias.

...Loli does not have a strict association with child in most cases, it used to solely be the short-term for Lolita Fashion.

I would apply child depending on the picture, or, the tags Alaktorn has posted based on the picture.

ALAKTORN said:
Edit: The hell is oppai_loli_art_style.

From the tag's name, I assumed it meant that it was the art style is what makes the character looks like a loli (like zankuro's art style - I'm sure deathlock-san isn't a child), but the wiki article says otherwise.

just_juan said:
From the tag's name, I assumed it meant that it was the art style is what makes the character looks like a loli (like zankuro's art style - I'm sure deathlock-san isn't a child), but the wiki article says otherwise.

I added those wikis. oppai_loli (ロリ巨乳) was a tag for lolis with big breasts, then for some reason it was aliased to loli_face_and_big_boobs which changed its meaning slightly.
Now oppai_loli_art_style is cropping up and I think it’s what oppai_loli used to be.

So what did I miss?!

Just wondering, does the site know the word "babyface"?
I don't know if it helps at all, but I'm surprised no one ever mentioned it inside the site.

just_juan said:
Just wondering, does the site know the word "babyface"?
I don't know if it helps at all, but I'm surprised no one ever mentioned it inside the site.

Some people here have an aversion to using the wiki so that particular word is also often used to denote a good guy/gal/hero(ine) and it might cause some confusion|

Mirou said:
I see... You weren't trying to justify cleaning up the site by removing old redundant tags, you were trying to justify cluttering the site by creating new redundant tags. But where does it stop?

It stops when you read tha part where I said I wasn't asking any change|

Mirou said:
Sure, we could take every result under solo child weapon and make it into one child soldier tag, but why stop there? Why not just take every female solo child weapon and assign female child soldier? Going further, one tag for red_hair female solo child weapon, one for long_hair red_hair female solo child weapon, etc., and whenever someone is looking for a long-haired, red-headed, female child soldier, all they have to do is use the long-haired_red-headed_female_child_soldier tag. Very quickly we'd have more tags than we know what to do with.

Brief History Lesson: This tag of which you speak used to be a pool - Someone didn't think it should be a pool-though did offer the opportunity to make it into a tag - so I took it| Earlier this same person(including the Almighty Master System to a degree)1ce told me that my tags were pointless/useless/superfluous(basically everything but another tag like all before)because those tags couldn't apply to every tag that vaguely includes an aspect of another tag AND that my tag was akin to creating a tag similar to "long-haired_red-headed_female_child_soldier" basically culminating several tags into one like that there and that's basically what straight shota is and was simply trying to show it to you all but at this point...I very don't expect anyone to care|

Mirou said:
You jumped from using "some" to "most" pretty quickly.

Well you missed another important part...I WAS saying 2 SIMILAR things but I WASN'T saying tha SAME thing in those 2 instances you pointed out|
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I MIGHT never have parsed my inquiry had I known it would cause this much vitriol in you somehow|

Galinoa said:
No.

That position is built on a fallacy but I completely believe...that you believe what you just said|

Tallcat said:
QFT

STFU

Mirou said:
Keir, please stop asking questions and ignoring the answers when you disagree with them.

Telling someone "NO" is not the answer...explaining why the answer is "NO" is an answer but again -- I never expected anything would change and was mostly asking why most things are tha way they are and now I know it is - just because|

You could've said it's actually because when a user is looking for a naked body...they have an expectation and looking for female (ignoring whether or not trans-people & such are male or not) then they expect breasts/vagina-that's it but it gets a bit shakier when you're searching up futanari or intersex or newhalf|

Karkat? Is that you?

Vitali said:
Karkat? Is that you?

lel

Vitali said:
Karkat? Is that you?

Who is THAT!?

RLTM said:
I always thought of loli as a body type. So 100yo vampires can be tagged loli, but in no way are they still children.

Wait a sec, then, Usa Mimi from kodomo no jikan, even being an elementary schoolgirl is not loli because she has huge boobs?

nanuchan said:
Wait a sec, then, Usa Mimi from kodomo no jikan, even being an elementary schoolgirl is not loli because she has huge boobs?

Breast size is not what makes you an adult/child. She’s still a loli.

Are there any "exacting standards" you're supposed to look for as far as loli and shota respectively or is it up to the discretion of tha beholder as it were?

Keir_Tanaka said:
up to the discretion of tha beholder as it were?

Pretty sure that’s it.