Sankaku Channel/Rating System Discussion

Looks very good. But i have a Problem with the "nipples are explicit".
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/1304344

<= This is a Screenshot of an Ecchi-anime. Ecchi is not Hentai, dont forget that!
Ergo nipples should be questionable...
Panchira Pics/Gifs too.

ALAKTORN said:
cleft_of_venus sounds like something that should be explicit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pudendal_cleft. Don’t know about cameltoe, but I consider a cameltoe as “clear outlines of the vagina”.

Edit: maybe the “erect nipples” under questionable should also be specified to be “erect nipples under clothes”.

The first sentence under questionable says: "too sexy for Safe without showing actual nudity"

I hoped it would imply that everything following would automatically suggest "under clothes"

I would agree a nude cleft_of_venus would be EXPLICIT but the point I hoped to make that it's OK for a "line", "slit" or "cleft" to appear under panties, a swimsuit or tight clothes and still be QUESTIONABLE. I think even a subtle clitoris under clothes would be questionable but if it's obviously pronounced and throbbing would bump it into explicit.

For "clear outlines of the vagina" I meant inner labia and vulva. Examples are posts like:

https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/1733584
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/4212704
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/720425 and
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/3957706

Obviously two of these would be explicit for the bare breasts, but hopefully you get the point. Now I see that "spread_vagina_under_clothes" is its own tag so perhaps it would be acceptable if I replaced "clear outlines" with that?

I see that some are questionable but I think all of spread_vagina_under_clothes should be EXPLICIT.

I was wondering about bondage and bdsm, should these be mentioned one way or the other? You could argue that bondage should always be at least questionable, but currently Post #4381107 is rated safe.

I agree all bondage and bdsm should be at least QUESTIONABLE without nudity and EXPLICIT with nudity. I'd be happy to add them unless you think a discussion is in order.

thatsNotSafe said:
The first sentence under questionable says: "too sexy for Safe without showing actual nudity"

Guess I misread.

thatsNotSafe said:
Now I see that "spread_vagina_under_clothes" is its own tag so perhaps it would be acceptable if I replaced "clear outlines" with that?

Possibly.

thatsNotSafe said:
I see that some are questionable but I think all of spread_vagina_under_clothes should be EXPLICIT.

Agreeable.

thatsNotSafe said:
I agree all bondage and bdsm should be at least QUESTIONABLE without nudity and EXPLICIT with nudity. I'd be happy to add them unless you think a discussion is in order.

If anyone has any objections the discussion can start at any point and the wiki can be changed.

namekianer said:
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/1304344

<= This is a Screenshot of an Ecchi-anime. Ecchi is not Hentai, dont forget that!
Ergo nipples should be questionable...

“Explicit” doesn’t mean “hentai”. They don’t have to describe the same thing.

ALAKTORN said:
“Explicit” doesn’t mean “hentai”. They don’t have to describe the same thing.

But a Hentai is Explicit, Ecchi "just" Questionable.
That means: Pantyshot, Underwear, Nipple_slip (and so on) are Questionable!

thatsNotSafe said:
I agree all bondage and bdsm should be at least QUESTIONABLE without nudity and EXPLICIT with nudity. I'd be happy to add them unless you think a discussion is in order.

I agree with you as well.

ALAKTORN said:
“Explicit” doesn’t mean “hentai”. They don’t have to describe the same thing.

I agree with this as well. Same for movies actually; Rated R movies can have breasts and sex too, but they're still not porn.

thatsNotSafe said:
I agree all bondage and bdsm should be at least QUESTIONABLE without nudity and EXPLICIT with nudity. I'd be happy to add them unless you think a discussion is in order.

Disagree, bondage + genitals/ sex/ semen is explicit. Just nude is not enough...
bondage + nude:
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/4384676
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/4361947

bondage + gen./s:
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/4373787
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/4378369

The difference is obvious?

Lionmaster15 said:
I agree with this as well. Same for movies actually; Rated R movies can have breasts and sex too, but they're still not porn.

Really?
Sex is not porn. Sounds like a bad joke Leo...

Im not sure if i must explain the difference between Ecchi (Fanservice) and Hentai.

spamtrasher2012 said:
But a Hentai is Explicit, Ecchi "just" Questionable.
That means: Pantyshot, Underwear, Nipple_slip (and so on) are Questionable!

Correct...
I can show 10-20 Pics/Gifs to explain the difference between Hentai (Explicit) and Ecchi (Questionable) if you want.

namekianer said:

spamtrasher2012 said:
But a Hentai is Explicit, Ecchi "just" Questionable.
That means: Pantyshot, Underwear, Nipple_slip (and so on) are Questionable!

Correct...

Creating multiple accounts and agreeing with yourself isn’t gonna help.

namekianer said:
I can show 10-20 Pics/Gifs to explain the difference between Hentai (Explicit) and Ecchi (Questionable) if you want.

Why do you think the explicit and questionable ratings mean that? Explicit doesn’t mean hentai, questionable doesn’t mean ecchi. You just decided that by yourself.

The context of a picture should not matter for an objective observer. And I tought that was the point of the whole thread. To clarify the rules with objective or distinct characteristics, and not personal preferences.

If the ratings were H(entai), E(cchi) and safe, then the given objections would make more sense to me.

This just reenforces what I already said, it is impossible separate all the images into three distinct categories everyone will agree with. Also, context should be important in this, or any rating system. When humans decide if a movie/game/image is appropriate for an age group or not they do not use a quantifiable measure like [x] about of swears, blood, death, skin, sex, ect. It is an imprecise judgement informed by their culture and how they were raised. Attempts to remove all imprecise judgment may make things seem cleaner, but the end result will lead to more objectionable ratings than otherwise.

In addiction, largely equating questionable with ecchi and explicit with hentai makes sense considering how the community was rating the images and how the ratings were described in the wiki until a few days ago. I don't think namekianer is any more guilty of putting his own views on what questionable and explicit mean than anyone else here.

ALAKTORN said:
Creating multiple accounts and agreeing with yourself isn’t gonna help.

I just use another Name to get more attention, that we can finish this debate.
I know i repeat it, but here again:
nipples, pantyshot/panchira, nipple_slip, underwear (and so on) are ecchi (in english: questionable)
and genitals, semen, sex (and so on) are explicit.
Is it so hard to understand it?

ALAKTORN said:
Explicit doesn’t mean hentai, questionable doesn’t mean ecchi. You just decided that by yourself.

Wrong...
Im just a Gallery-Mod on another Page and there (and on other sites) are the same rules. That have nothing to do with my Opinion, i havent decided anything.
Okay, try this: A Anime full with Girls/Women in underwear, topless, transparent_clothes (erotic, but no genitals/sex). Is that for children or more for People 16+ ?

someguy1653 said:
It is an imprecise judgement informed by their culture and how they were raised. Attempts to remove all imprecise judgment may make things seem cleaner, but the end result will lead to more objectionable ratings than otherwise.
I don't think namekianer is any more guilty of putting his own views on what questionable and explicit mean than anyone else here.

I agree 90% with your first point and 100% with the second.
We need some clear Rules for Sankaku and to fix all the wrong Rating and Tags.

namekianer said:
Wrong...
Im just a Gallery-Mod on another Page and there (and on other sites) are the same rules.

What other sites do doesn’t really matter. If we decide that other sites are doing it wrong, then we won’t follow what other sites are doing.

The problem I see with what someguy1653 and namekianer are saying is that the definition of “questionable” is very blurry and everyone has its own opinion of what passes into explicit and what doesn’t at that point. That’s why having clear rules like the ones we just made is good, so that all these debates aren’t necessary– saying nipples = explicit means that you can’t be wrong by tagging an image with nipples as explicit. I do agree with someguy1653 when he says that such clear-cut rules create cases where the rating can be considered inaccurate (a random nipple in a picture is far different from clear sexual intercourse), but honestly I’m not sure if we should pursue such accuracy when it creates infinite debates on grey-area cases, and makes it hard for people to decide how such images should be rated.

I don’t consider the current rules final and it would be nice to get some more discussion going, but I really feel like this issue has no perfect solution.

Edit: I forgot to mention one thing… some ecchi anime have things that even under the previous rules would be considered explicit. Aki Sora, Yosuga no Sora have sex scenes yet the genitals are never shown, and so are not considered hentai, but I’m sure we have tons of images of sex without genitals exposed that are rated explicit. Seikon no Qwaser, Manyuu Hikenchou and Kagaku na Yatsura are 3 other ecchi anime that push the limit of “ecchi” pretty far without showing sex scenes, and although I’m not sure, we probably have some images taken from those anime that are rated explicit.

Edit2: ran a quick search, well that wasn’t hard.
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/?tags=kagaku_na_yatsura+screencap+rating%3Ae&commit=Search
Post #4151657 has been rated explicit this whole time, yet it comes from an ecchi anime and doesn’t show any genitalia. This just to prove that the “explicit = hentai” and “questionable = ecchi” argument doesn’t really work.

ALAKTORN said:
What other sites do doesn’t really matter. If we decide that other sites are doing it wrong, then we won’t follow what other sites are doing.

Correct.
And if you Guys use wrong Tags or/and Ratings here, other Pages dont care much about it. Whatever...

ALAKTORN said:
Edit: I forgot to mention one thing… some ecchi anime have things that even under the previous rules would be considered explicit. Aki Sora, Yosuga no Sora have sex scenes yet the genitals are never shown, and so are not considered hentai, but I’m sure we have tons of images of sex without genitals exposed that are rated explicit.

Aki Sora OVA, 1 (2009) Hentai
Aki Sora: Yume no Naka OVA, 2 (2010) Hentai
Booth are Hentai, not Ecchi. And they are in the Lists under Hentai...
Sex is (and was) always explicit, i dont get the Point Alak.

ALAKTORN said:Edit2: ran a quick search, well that wasn’t hard.
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/?tags=kagaku_na_yatsura+screencap+rating%3Ae&commit=Search
Post #4151657 has been rated explicit this whole time, yet it comes from an ecchi anime and doesn’t show any genitalia. This just to prove that the “explicit = hentai” and “questionable = ecchi” argument doesn’t really work.

Good Point, the "hardcore Ecchi". The borderline Animes are close to be a Hentai. I would say pussy_juice make it explicit, but without... => Q

Easy, or not?

namekianer said:
I know i repeat it, but here again:
nipples, pantyshot/panchira, nipple_slip, underwear (and so on) are ecchi (in english: questionable)

Wikipedia: Ecchi (エッチ etchi?, pronounced [et.tɕi]) is an often used slang term in the Japanese language for lewd or lascivious conduct.

Comparing hentai and ecchi to explicit and questionable are like comparing apples to oranges namekianer. They are both fruits and they both come from trees. Beyond that, they have different properties.

PLEASE STOP COMPARING EXPLICIT TO HENTAI!! THEY ARE DIFFERENT THINGS.

*sigh*

Here is a picture of a kitten to help calm everyone down. Post #649080

Lionmaster15 said:
Comparing hentai and ecchi to explicit and questionable are like comparing apples to oranges namekianer.

Nope, i just want show that Ecchi (like Panchira, transparent clothes, underwear, breasts) is not Hentai(genitalia, sex,).
Perhaps you should read my Text again or watch a Hentai and an Ecchi-Anime to see the difference?

Lionmaster15 said:PLEASE STOP COMPARING EXPLICIT TO HENTAI!! THEY ARE DIFFERENT THINGS.

<= Hm, when you asked Wikipedia about Ecchi, why not about "Hentai" too?
Thanks Leo, now my head hurts...

namekianer said:
Aki Sora OVA, 1 (2009) Hentai
Aki Sora: Yume no Naka OVA, 2 (2010) Hentai
Booth are Hentai, not Ecchi. And they are in the Lists under Hentai...

And you got that from where? MAL considers it “R+”, which is not hentai (that’s “Rx”). http://myanimelist.net/anime/6987/Aki-Sora

A-P has it in its database, and A-P doesn’t add anything that is considered hentai. It’s tagged both as “ecchi” and as “explicit sex”. http://www.anime-planet.com/anime/aki-sora

AniDB considers it “ecchi” and “seinen” and not “18 restricted”. http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=6782
A hentai with the “18 restricted” tag: http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=3527

Nobody considers it a hentai, because it’s not. Its manga isn’t sold as hentai, it’s sold as ecchi. By the way, there are TONS of manga that are really explicit, and are still not considered hentai. Another anime that isn’t considered hentai even though it has sex is Futari Ecchi:
http://www.anime-planet.com/anime/futari-ecchi
http://myanimelist.net/anime/382/Futari_Ecchi
Post #747853 & Post #4321864.

namekianer said:
Nope, i just want show that Ecchi (like Panchira, transparent clothes, underwear, breasts) is not Hentai(genitalia, sex,).
Perhaps you should read my Text again or watch a Hentai and an Ecchi-Anime to see the difference?

Sadly enough, I've watched more ecchi and hentai than any person should...I just tend to enjoy it rather than analyzing it.

namekianer said:

<= Hm, when you asked Wikipedia about Ecchi, why not about "Hentai" too?
Thanks Leo, now my head hurts...

Fine, here:
Wikipedia: Hentai- "hentai is a catch-all term to describe a genre of anime and manga pornography. English adopts and uses hentai as a genre of pornography..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hentai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecchi

Can't have a civil argument if I make it too hard to look at the references I suppose.

P.s. If I'm not allowed to post Wikipedia articles, sorry.

ALAKTORN said:
And you got that from where?

anisearch.de
I know myanimelist.net and other Pages about Manga/Anime. But most of them are half so good like anisearch ^^
BTW, Aki Sora and Aki Sora: Yume no Naka are 2 different Hentais.

Futari Ecchi?
Okay, let us check the Tags...
Tags: Comedy, Ecchi, Explicit Sex
Ergo: Ecchi and Hentai

@Leo: I cant make any Post on Wiki too and good that you know some Hentai and Ecchi.
So where is the Problem with the Rating? Im sure i make a List of Tags for the Ratings in this Thread...

namekianer said:
@Leo: I cant make any Post on Wiki too and good that you know some Hentai and Ecchi.
So where is the Problem with the Rating? Im sure i make a List of Tags for the Ratings in this Thread...

...Did you seriously just accuse me of tampering with this stuff!

Ok, I'm going to ignore this guy to the best of my ability from now on. If he's just going to insult us I don't want to interact with him.

So, as a final comment for my farewell (to nemekianer), I don't have a problem with the current set of rules. Just how you keep trying to change them to allow nudity in the questionable section.

Leo, i manipulate nobody and i havent insult someone here.
I just show the Community of Sankaku that the Rules are not clear enough.
Ergo: I helped you guys.

Question: Is that Theme finished or have we some Days left for the discussion?

There is always room for constructive discussions.

Steinkauz said:
There is always room for constructive discussions.

Sounds good to me.
I have a little problem with "nipples are Explicit" and "Underwear is safe".
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/593753
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/3621833
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/3648435
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/3753349

Here some nipples, im sure you guys will agree thats not enough to be explicit.

https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/1647245
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/1658805
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/1503650
https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/3860891

And here a little bit underwear, 100% not safe.

The rules don’t say that underwear is safe. “Only the tamest of bra & panty images are safe” means almost the opposite, actually.

ALAKTORN said:
The rules don’t say that underwear is safe. “Only the tamest of bra & panty images are safe” means almost the opposite, actually.

Such as a sports bra. Swimsuits get to cheat into being safe pretty easily but not underwear.

*the following is a rant, ignore if you want.*
P.s. On the note of things not rated properly, I am finding a load of pussy with the questionable rating. I was going through getting the nipples but I kept noticing many with the vagina tag in there. These people are getting really lazy!!!

ALAKTORN said:
The rules don’t say that underwear is safe. “Only the tamest of bra & panty images are safe” means almost the opposite, actually.

Hm, why dont we put the underwear complete under the section questionable?
A answer to the nippleposts would be nice too.

namekianer said:
Hm, why dont we put the underwear complete under the section questionable?
A answer to the nippleposts would be nice too.

The nipple = explicit decision was intended to remove the "is it or isn't it" question about questionable and explicit. I think that most of us could find nipple pictures we find questionable, not explicit. But because it is VERY subjective, it's much more clear cut to say nipples = explicit - just rate it that way.

Your complaints (as an example) over minor details is the exact reason it was implemented. I'm not sure why it bothers to such excess that you have to beat what is essentially a dead horse. Unless someone is physically with you who is restraining you from looking at anything marked explicit; it is a null issue. You can just as easily look at one rating as the other without ever having it affect your experience. The rating system is a VERY broad category in which to sort pictures, so ease of sorting only makes sense. I'm sorry if this some how offended you, but again, it's not a big deal. You're not offering constructive criticism, you're just complaining. There is indeed a difference.

Decal said:
You're not offering constructive criticism, you're just complaining. There is indeed a difference.

Thats wrong and your long "answer" is not helpful.
Better would be a Pro/contra

ALAKTORN said:
Although Post #3842725 looks Explicit to me based on the new rules. You can kind of see the nipples, I’m not sure where areola_slip falls within the new rules…

Thoughts?

My vote is that that would be questionable. I think the nipple is the main part people seek, the areolae just excites people.
What do you think namekianer? (and everyone else)

If we're going by regular censorship rules you see on TV, any nipple at all would be censored. Even just a little bit.

Hm, I guess I was just thinking that if our rules were that strict that we wouldn't even have a questionable section.